The Beginning Of The Hatred

[CHUQ]

This article brings forth some good points and makes it a little clearer to the probs in the ME,


Israel, without the United States, would probably not exist. The country came perilously close to extinction during the October 1973 war when Egypt, trained and backed by the Soviet Union, crossed the Suez and the Syrians poured in over the Golan Heights. Huge American military transport planes came to the rescue. They began landing every half-hour to refit the battered Israeli army, which had lost most of its heavy armor. By the time the war was over, the United States had given Israel $2.2 billion in emergency military aid.

The intervention, which enraged the Arab world, triggered the OPEC oil embargo that for a time wreaked havoc on Western economies. This was perhaps the most dramatic example of the sustained life-support system the United States has provided to the Jewish state.


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070702_a_declaration_of_independence_from_israel/


I may not agree with all that is in the article, but I can see what brought some of the probs to a head.

[Sonny]

The hatred started way before 1973, Ben Gurion legitimizes that hate back to 1948 with his quote
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

[CHUQ]

I agree that the hate started way back at the end of WWI when the area became a Brit mandate. Then it really came to a head in 1936 when Arabs tried to get the Brits to do something about the Jews and the theft of land. But the Peel commission found there was no basis for the Arabs complaints. IMO, that is when the Arab-Jew thing starting getting really messy.

After 1948, the Arabs realized that the US would support the Jews, but in 1973, they saw how heavy the West would go in their support and it was then that the hatred for the West became the rabid ideology it is today. Of course both Bushes have done nothing to change the ideas.

[Pete]

Our thread relates to a similar topic in another forum, so i'll paste a part of the article and my reply,,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hamas is helping create a culture of hatred and vengeance, " the statement charged. "They are killing the innocence of children by forcing them to undergo military training and teaching them hatred. They want to use these children to fight their own people in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
My reply,, "How is this different then young Israeli kids tought to hate Arabs and itching to reach age when they can join the IDF to kill Palestinians ??? "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A reply to my post,,,
Pete, Pete: how can I possibly teach you when you are so unwilling to learn.

My children went to israeli schools. They were never taught to hate anyone. I worked with and knew dozens of Israelis who had been in the IDF or were in the IDF, including some pilots. None of them wanted to kill anyone, not Palestinians, not Arabs, not Muslims. As long as Israel is under attack, as long at the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims do not accept the existance of the Jewish state of Israel, there will be an Israeli army and they will kill people to defend Israelis.

Did you notice that the article was written by a Palestinain Muslim who used to write for Palestinian papers but didn;t like the censorship and being a propaganda tool of Arafat?

I am curious. On what basis do you assume that Israeli children are taught to hate?

Why do you automatically defend what Hamas is doing?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not defend Hamas, nor do i have any love, respect, or compassion for Hamas,
I do however see people, Palestinian people under occupation punished because they elected a party of their choice. It doesnt take a Nobel prize winner to recognize there is going to be hate, not necessary taught but by looking out their window,(if they have a window to look through) To isolate them and say hate comes only from Hamas, one has to see that there must exist a reactionative hate or there would have been solutions rather then constant war and conflict.
While these leaderships play their political games, the hardship falls on the people and hate will thrive on both sides.

[Sonny]

Good post, pete glad you brought it here for a read.

[CHUQ]

An excellent post and well said. It may be true that Israeli kids are not taught to hate in school, b ut that is not the only place hatred is taught.

[Tumbleweed]

Good point Chuq. The real hatred is learned by the kids sitting in a corner watching how their parents are reacting to the situation.

[CHUQ]

Unfortunately, in the ME, war is a daily thing and what a children observes will form their adult course. Only a peace can help alviate the hatred.

[Pete]

I'm afraid my sympathy is fading, with the death tolls you observe throughout this region, argueing over their religion and God, then i'll borrow the quote from the movie The Ten Commandments ,," if you cant live by the laws of God then die by the word of God.

[sigaryot]

the palestinians are a cancer, there are many cures for cancer, im using chemotherapy at the moment-Moshe Ya'alon.
The only thing worse than the death of an Arab is the death of one of my people-Meir Kahane

[Pete]

the palestinians are a cancer, there are many cures for cancer, im using chemotherapy at the moment-Moshe Ya'alon.
The only thing worse than the death of an Arab is the death of one of my people-Meir Kahane

You must be taking your views from the Netanyahuh hand book of "how do we get rid of these f**ken Palestinians once and for all"

[Tumbleweed]

I don't feel the Palestinians are a cancer but the radical elements ruling their territory certainly are. There are generations growing up there that know nothing but violence.

[CHUQ]

I don't feel the Palestinians are a cancer but the radical elements ruling their territory certainly are. There are generations growing up there that know nothing but violence.

The violennce has become an institution and once a tradition is embraced, it will take major work for it to be broken.

[Pete]

Well it's no secret Moshe Ya'alon doesn't hide his dislike for Pallestinians when he refers to them as a cancer, i believe Netanyahuh has uttered the same words.
But these statements come from a former Israeli General with a leading role in the 1996 shelling of a United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL) compound in Qana, Lebanon. Under the supervision of Ya'alon, Israeli armed forces repeatedly targeted the compound, killing 106 civilians and wounding hundreds of others, the subject of Kofi Anans recent controvercial remarks that the IDF intended to bomb the compound.

[Tumbleweed]

Israel also uses human shields , a terrorist tactic that makes them no better than their enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTh8M80LA_s

They need to be careful who is watching. It's a 2 part video on Israel using the same terrorist tactics they denounce.

Israel isn't an innocent party to this conflict. I have no sympathy for them because they get what they give.

[Josh]

What do you have against Israel, Pete, your posts are all anti Israel and it seems as if you are Pro Arab and only defending the poor palles side. Israelis dont have a right to defend against rocket attacks and suicide bombers.

[sigaryot]

This article brings forth some good points and makes it a little clearer to the probs in the ME,


Israel, without the United States, would probably not exist. The country came perilously close to extinction during the October 1973 war when Egypt, trained and backed by the Soviet Union, crossed the Suez and the Syrians poured in over the Golan Heights. Huge American military transport planes came to the rescue. They began landing every half-hour to refit the battered Israeli army, which had lost most of its heavy armor. By the time the war was over, the United States had given Israel $2.2 billion in emergency military aid.

The intervention, which enraged the Arab world, triggered the OPEC oil embargo that for a time wreaked havoc on Western economies. This was perhaps the most dramatic example of the sustained life-support system the United States has provided to the Jewish state.


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070702_a_declaration_of_independence_from_israel/


I may not agree with all that is in the article, but I can see what brought some of the probs to a head.

When was Israel close to destruction? The arabs snuck up on our HOLIEST day!! what would the reaction have been had we attacked on ramadan? We were caught by surprise, partly due the fact that a double agent, the 'Son-in-law', had fed Israel false information. We regrouped and it started going to plan. the Egyptian propaganda mill went into overtime to say that the planes being shot down were Israeli...in fact the Egyptian airforce was pulverized, for the second time by the war-weary Israelis.

[sigaryot]

What do you have against Israel, Pete, your posts are all anti Israel and it seems as if you are Pro Arab and only defending the poor palles side. Israelis dont have a right to defend against rocket attacks and suicide bombers.

Of course we have a right to defend ourselves. The Knesset has a duty to protect Israelis, we protect ourselves by any means necessary. Including pre-emptive attacks and removing infrastructure.

[sigaryot]

Well it's no secret Moshe Ya'alon doesn't hide his dislike for Pallestinians when he refers to them as a cancer, i believe Netanyahuh has uttered the same words.
But these statements come from a former Israeli General with a leading role in the 1996 shelling of a United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon (UNIFIL) compound in Qana, Lebanon. Under the supervision of Ya'alon, Israeli armed forces repeatedly targeted the compound, killing 106 civilians and wounding hundreds of others, the subject of Kofi Anans recent controvercial remarks that the IDF intended to bomb the compound.

People that encourage suicide bombers, incite hatred and encourage disunity are NOT people, they are a cancer.

[CHUQ]

I seems to be fairly evidentr why there will be no peace anytime soon.

[CHUQ]

This is part of the problem, anyone who does not totally support Israel and its actions is somehow in league with the "terrorists". I critize all parties that do stupid stuff that prevents a peaceful solution to the conflict. Suicides bombers are a stupid way way to make a point, they kill indiscrimately, bombing a residential area kills indiscriminately, both are wrong.

[Tumbleweed]

I agree CHUQ, there is enough blame to go around on both sides that results in a continued conflict.

[Stanley]

You would think that there would arise intelligent rational minds with negotiations resulting in progress for peace after all these decades.
I thought with Israels constant whining, they didnt have a negotiationg partner, with Arrafats passing away there would be improved decisive engagements for peace.

[sigaryot]

This is part of the problem, anyone who does not totally support Israel and its actions is somehow in league with the "terrorists". I critize all parties that do stupid stuff that prevents a peaceful solution to the conflict. Suicides bombers are a stupid way way to make a point, they kill indiscrimately, bombing a residential area kills indiscriminately, both are wrong.

well, they should relocate if they are so unhappy here. or maybe their leadership and the other arab states should help too. instead of sitting there in all their complicit glory

[CHUQ]

So if the Palestinians are unhappy they should leave their land to the Israelis?

[Tumbleweed]

well, they should relocate if they are so unhappy here. or maybe their leadership and the other arab states should help too. instead of sitting there in all their complicit glory

That's not practical or feasible.

Palestinians have every right to their lands as Israel has to theirs. The whole point of attempting to come up with some sort of peace plan is so both sides can co-exist.

Saying the Palestinians should move to other countries just so Israel can have their land is not realistic and self serving for Israel.

[sigaryot]

they lost all their rights to land after their failed attempts to drive us jews, the original inhabitants, out.

[CHUQ]

they lost all their rights to land after their failed attempts to drive us jews, the original inhabitants, out.

I guess if the Palestinians left willingly that would make it easier to take the land the Jews have always wanted. It would be less expensive in manpower, economic and military costs. Not to mention it would be easier to handle any criticism from the international community.

[CHUQ]

The original inhabitants? That is a loaded gun. That is subject to another debate.

[Tumbleweed]

they lost all their rights to land after their failed attempts to drive us jews, the original inhabitants, out.

I take it they don't teach history in Israel.:confused:

[Stanley]

Could i be wrong or misinformed , did Jews and Arabs not live side by side in peace in what was then Pallestine before 1948 ?

[Tumbleweed]

Palestinians consider themselves Canaanites, and Canaanites were the first inhabitants of what is now known as Israel.

The statement:

they lost all their rights to land after their failed attempts to drive us jews, the original inhabitants, out.

is too broad to address without further explanation of what this statement was meant to mean.

[sigaryot]

I take it they don't teach history in Israel.:confused:

why, jews have a 4000 year connection with thus land. arabs were nomads that just eneded up here

[CHUQ]

So, I guess since they were nomads, they are not considered inhabitantsa of the land. Sounds like the white excuse for stealing NA land in the US. Weak at best!

[iris in stones]

When you're talking about the Palestinians & Lebanese, that's not exactly the case. In the years when the Ottoman Empire dominated these places, these groups formed a highly urbanized, sedentary, bureaucratic class. This association with cities, particularly in Lebanon is shown in the Bible, in which the more rural and peripatetic Israelites are juxtaposed in conflict with the more urban, sophisticated Philistines.
Arabs? Perhaps. But not to the extent the inhabitants of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq are.
These groups are too pluralistic to be considered Arabs or forming one Arab identity.

[sigaryot]

When you're talking about the Palestinians & Lebanese, that's not exactly the case. In the years when the Ottoman Empire dominated these places, these groups formed a highly urbanized, sedentary, bureaucratic class. This association with cities, particularly in Lebanon is shown in the Bible, in which the more rural and peripatetic Israelites are juxtaposed in conflict with the more urban, sophisticated Philistines.
Arabs? Perhaps. But not to the extent the inhabitants of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq are.
These groups are too pluralistic to be considered Arabs or forming one Arab identity.

the Philistines were greek, they settled in Gaza, these arabs are not there descendents lol to think they are is laughable. 'palestinians' and Jordanians are the same people. Jordan was part of 'palestine', eretz israel too. to even say 'palestine' in arabic corrupts the language.

[sigaryot]

Palestinians consider themselves Canaanites, and Canaanites were the first inhabitants of what is now known as Israel.

The statement:



is too broad to address without further explanation of what this statement was meant to mean.

sorry, the jews are knaanites. they integrated into jewish society. hebrew IS a knaanite dialect...

[Tumbleweed]

So, if both sides of the conflict think they are Canaanites, what makes Israel think they have precedent over the Palestinians claims to the land, if both came from the same territory to start with?

[Tumbleweed]

When you're talking about the Palestinians & Lebanese, that's not exactly the case. In the years when the Ottoman Empire dominated these places, these groups formed a highly urbanized, sedentary, bureaucratic class. This association with cities, particularly in Lebanon is shown in the Bible, in which the more rural and peripatetic Israelites are juxtaposed in conflict with the more urban, sophisticated Philistines.
Arabs? Perhaps. But not to the extent the inhabitants of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq are.
These groups are too pluralistic to be considered Arabs or forming one Arab identity.

The earliest known settlers of the region, which is now Israel and Lebanon, was originally both considered one territory which was the land of the Canaanites wasn't it?

[iris in stones]

Land of the Canaanites.
I wish it were that simple, but political, social and tribal identities were not that large or that fixed. Before the Assyrian invasions of 600 B.C and even before the Egyptian problems in the New Kingdom Era, c. 1200 (the migration through the Sinai was believed to have started in 1250 B.C.) there were several petty kingdoms and variously identified peoples in the region. The most impressive of these were the Phoenicians, whose ports at Byblos, Sidon and Tyre were the nucleus of an empire that would stretch as far as Spain and would only cease to exist as a result of the Punic Wars.

[iris in stones]

the Philistines were greek,

No. They were Phoenicians. It is possible that there were small Greek settlements in the area, but nothing on the order of Ionia or in the Peloponnesus.

If you're talking about the "Arabization" of the populations of the Middle East and North Africa, which did happen with the first Arab invasions westward, that is how these peoples would have become "Arabized." But I don't think they partake as much of the Arab identity as the Saudis, Jordanians and Egyptians did. There is much else in their background that would mitigate Arab cultural influence.
Perhaps Palestinians and Jordanians should be asked, every time they converse with westerners, "Are you an Arab?" Maybe only they can decide if they're Arabs or not.
I'd never dismiss the possibility that some Greek blood flows in the veins of the peoples of Lebanon and Palestine. And I'm dead sure that Phoenician blood flows in the veins of nearly all the "turkic" and "arabic" peoples of the Eastern Mediterranean.

[sigaryot]

So, if both sides of the conflict think they are Canaanites, what makes Israel think they have precedent over the Palestinians claims to the land, if both came from the same territory to start with?

simple, arabs are arabs, not knaanites.

[Tumbleweed]

simple, arabs are arabs, not knaanites.

Nothing simple about it. You didn't answer my question.

[CHUQ]

Nothing simple about it. You didn't answer my question.


I agree that there is nothing simple about this situation. It appears that the agrument being made sounds a lot like another immigration going on.

While everyone is thinking about it, I have another question.

For decades Arafat and Fatah have been the bane of Israel Vile things were said by each side abiut the other, but now Fatha is the good guy in Israrel's eyes and they are doing a lot to strengthen their position. So my question is, when did Fatah become an entity worthy of helping? If it is not the rise of Hamas, then why did this cooperation take place decades ago and all other debates would be non-esistent?

[CHUQ]

Again ask, why was this type of offer was not made years ago before the establishment of Hamas?


Olmert also promised to free 250 Palestinian prisoners of Abbas's Fatah party in a move aimed to bolster the moderate leader in the face of Hamas, after the Islamists seized control of the Gaza Strip on June 15.

The radio report said that at the meeting on Monday in the West Bank town of Jericho, Olmert could announce further measures beneficial to Abbas.

Among them, it said, could be creating a list of Fatah members belonging to armed groups who would no longer be pursued by Israel, something Abbas has asked for.


readme (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070714/wl_mideast_afp/mideastdiplomacyolmertabbas)

[Tumbleweed]

now Fatha is the good guy in Israrel's eyes and they are doing a lot to strengthen their position

The lesser of 2 evils perhaps.

[CHUQ]

Seems you are correct. I just do not understand why these actions were not offered after camp David. Would seem someone did not want peace until they found an enemy they cannot handle.

JENIN, West Bank (AFP) - A hero for Palestinians, a terrorist for Israel, charismatic West Bank militant leader Zakaria Zubeidi on Sunday laid down his arms after Israel agreed to stop hunting him down.


readme (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070715/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestinian)


BETHLEHEM, West Bank --
In seven years on the run from Israel, Amjad Halawi grew a thick mane of black hair well below his shoulders because he was too afraid to come out of hiding, even for a trip to the barbershop.

readme (http://www.thestate.com/372/story/119147.html)


Sorry about the length of these but it just brings upp the question, if these things are offered now, why not 30 yrs ago?

[Pete]

Could it be the natute and wisdom of Israeli PMs with aggressive agendas of force rather then diplomacy have to mature until they eventualy recognize they have an enemy that wont go away and they have to negotiate.
Then again it could be while they defy world opinion and go against those would support a peace plan, or an Organization (UN) just piles up so many resolutions, that keep being brought up in the public eyes that there is a recognition that Israel has to degotiate and use diplomacy.
Could it be that Itzak Rabin had the wisdom to see the paths of the past were not solutions to a permanent problem.
Any of the above Chuq ??

[CHUQ]

So many questions, so little time. LOL I think the wisdom that has been found is in the billfold of the US. Bush is desparate for something that will be some form of positive legacy and he is willing to pay for it. IMO, diplomacy has never been an option for Israel. They seem to believe the only to peace is by crushing the opponent. Might be a bit Machiavellian but that is the way I see it. Their problem is that they fight a group that will not go away and lick their wounds.

The hatred on both sides has become an institution, as I have said before and that is the problem. How do you break the circle of violence. Apparently neither side is willing to try.

[aifo yakov]

This article brings forth some good points and makes it a little clearer to the probs in the ME,


Israel, without the United States, would probably not exist. The country came perilously close to extinction during the October 1973 war when Egypt, trained and backed by the Soviet Union, crossed the Suez and the Syrians poured in over the Golan Heights. Huge American military transport planes came to the rescue. They began landing every half-hour to refit the battered Israeli army, which had lost most of its heavy armor. By the time the war was over, the United States had given Israel $2.2 billion in emergency military aid.

The intervention, which enraged the Arab world, triggered the OPEC oil embargo that for a time wreaked havoc on Western economies. This was perhaps the most dramatic example of the sustained life-support system the United States has provided to the Jewish state.


http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070702_a_declaration_of_independence_from_israel/


I may not agree with all that is in the article, but I can see what brought some of the probs to a head.

You do nto know the whole story.

The Soviet Union was resupplying the Arabs without limit. America was giving nothing.

Remember the Nuclear Alert (assuming you were even born then)? Put two and two together.

Israel was taking tanks, captured from Syria on the Golan, to Haifa where they were painted Israeli colors. They were taken to the Sinai and put into combat the next day.

Teh Israeli build Nesher fighter palne was cleaning up the Arab MiG 21's. One Israeli nesher pilot took on 11 egyptian Migs. He shot down 4 of them.

The Russians were manning Syria's air defenses from a building in downtown Damascus. Israel destroyed the building. The Russians lost the commanding general and a number of other combatants.

If Israel was left without supplies, the Arabs would have won and all of the Jews slaughtered.

You realize, of course, the the Arabs chose war over negotiations, don't you?

[aifo yakov]

Again ask, why was this type of offer was not made years ago before the establishment of Hamas?


Olmert also promised to free 250 Palestinian prisoners of Abbas's Fatah party in a move aimed to bolster the moderate leader in the face of Hamas, after the Islamists seized control of the Gaza Strip on June 15.

The radio report said that at the meeting on Monday in the West Bank town of Jericho, Olmert could announce further measures beneficial to Abbas.

Among them, it said, could be creating a list of Fatah members belonging to armed groups who would no longer be pursued by Israel, something Abbas has asked for.


readme (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070714/wl_mideast_afp/mideastdiplomacyolmertabbas)

And the pardoned Arabs renounced their pledge to not fight again.

[aifo yakov]

I agree that there is nothing simple about this situation. It appears that the agrument being made sounds a lot like another immigration going on.

While everyone is thinking about it, I have another question.

For decades Arafat and Fatah have been the bane of Israel Vile things were said by each side abiut the other, but now Fatha is the good guy in Israrel's eyes and they are doing a lot to strengthen their position. So my question is, when did Fatah become an entity worthy of helping? If it is not the rise of Hamas, then why did this cooperation take place decades ago and all other debates would be non-esistent?

No, Fatah is the lesser evil because it is not Fundamentalist.

[Lewis]

Give it time Chuq, this might still backfire as Olmert will be seen as weak and removed and all negotiations revised by perhaps a Netayahuh government.

[CHUQ]

No, Fatah is the lesser evil because it is not Fundamentalist.

NO to what? To it was not worthy? But was not it said that Fatah, no matter how they have chnaged still wants the destruction of Israel? But I thought the lesser of two evils was an unacceptable argument?

[CHUQ]

You do nto know the whole story.

The Soviet Union was resupplying the Arabs without limit. America was giving nothing.

Remember the Nuclear Alert (assuming you were even born then)? Put two and two together.

Israel was taking tanks, captured from Syria on the Golan, to Haifa where they were painted Israeli colors. They were taken to the Sinai and put into combat the next day.

Teh Israeli build Nesher fighter palne was cleaning up the Arab MiG 21's. One Israeli nesher pilot took on 11 egyptian Migs. He shot down 4 of them.

The Russians were manning Syria's air defenses from a building in downtown Damascus. Israel destroyed the building. The Russians lost the commanding general and a number of other combatants.

If Israel was left without supplies, the Arabs would have won and all of the Jews slaughtered.

You realize, of course, the the Arabs chose war over negotiations, don't you?



To begin with, I amold so I remember a lot more than you think. Second, and this is the whole story? At least according to your memory.

[iris in stones]

You realize, of course, the the Arabs chose war over negotiations, don't you?

Nothing new with respect to Arabs.
They are the most unstable of allies even in the best of times.

[Pete]

Aifo has been preaching that line for the last year, that Arabs chose war over negotiations but in the whole realm of the issues what was offered as pretense to negotiations was so far off anything acceptable, to accept it meant you were signing your death warrant.
It is nonsensical to continue this sort of rationalizing when the Israeli offers were, one an offer from a position a brutal occupier, and second from position of control.
It's no wonder Arrafat frequently stated after many peace innitiatives "they came empty handed" and wanted to negotiate.

[iris in stones]

The arrogant always negotiate in bad faith.
If you believe you are God's chosen, if you believe you possess final truth . . .
Then you always come empty-handed.