Stanley
10-04-2007, 06:35 AM
I found this exchange by Charlie Rangel and Lincoln diaz interesting, but i may be a bit bias as i have a particular respect for Charlie Rangel.
Welcome some views on this exchange.
As part of CNN's uncovering America series, we're taking a closer look at some of the issues affecting the Latino community. Many Hispanic Americans have very definite and diverse opinions about U.S. policy toward Cuba. And so does the United States Congress. Some lawmakers insist the time is right to ease sanctions against the communist nation. Others say that would be a huge mistake. And joining us now Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York and Republican Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart of Florida; gentlemen thanks very much for coming in.
And Charlie Rangel, let me start with you. You're the more senior member of this panel. Why do you believe it's time now to go ahead and lift the restrictions, lift the embargo, try to normalize relations with Cuba?
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: It was the time 45 years ago. The truth of the matter is that we have farmers anxious to sell chickens and pork and rice and beans and open up the markets. And so it's good for our farmers. We have a restriction on the fact that Cuban Americans and others cannot visit Cuba. This has been for over 40 years.
We cannot even -- they can't send money to try to help their relatives in Cuba. And, lastly, they can only visit once every three years. So, if they have a relative that's dying, they've got to time the death. This policy is really cut out for a handful of people in Miami and it's the tail wagging the dog. We've never had a worst foreign policy, trade policy or even an international policy than what we have with Cuba.
BLITZER: All right, Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart, why do you disagree?
REP. LINCOLN DIAZ-BALART (R), FLORIDA: Well Mr. Rangel first misstated some of the details of our policy. But let's focus on the principle aspects here. First of all, we are keeping billions of dollars from that communist terrorist dictatorship. And I'm sure that the family of Sergeant Greg Fronius, who was killed in El Salvador in 1987 by a Cuban planned mission, a Green Beret who was training the Salvador armed forces at the time or our forces who were killed fighting the Cubans in 1983, when our forces invaded and liberated Grenada, the relatives of those killed I'm sure would agree that it's a good idea to keep billions and billions of dollars from that communist terrorist dictatorship. And I'm sure that the family of Sergeant Greg Fronius, who was killed in El Salvador in 1987 by a Cuban planned mission -- a Green Beret who was training the Salvadoran armed forces at the time; or our forces who were killed fighting the Cubans in 1983 when our forces invaded and liberated Grenada. The relatives of those killed, I'm sure, would agree that it's a good idea to keep billions and billions of dollars from that regime.
When that regime had $6 or $7 billion a year from the Soviet Union, precisely -- Angola, Nicaragua and El Salvador, and so many other places, were hit with direct terrorism from that regime.
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: So we're keeping billions of dollars from that regime.
And then, now that the dictator is finally on his death bed, it's important that we retain... BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...leverage so that the political prisoners -- that's what we're -- that's what our policy says.
BLITZER: Well (INAUDIBLE)...
DIAZ-BALART: ...the embargo goes away tomorrow if all political prisoners -- and when all political prisoners are freed; political parties, labor unions and the press are legalized; and free elections are scheduled.
Which of the three conditions do the Cuban people not deserve?
BLITZER: All right, Congressman Rangel?
RANGEL: Let me tell you one thing. First of all, he never said that Cuba or Castro has killed anybody. Indeed, the record is clear that we tried to kill him. But when he starts talking about...
DIAZ-BALART: How about the brothers to the rescue who were murdered over international space?
Didn't Castro kill them?
RANGEL: Let me talk about communists. You know, you try...
DIAZ-BALART: What were -- how about that Vietnam veteran killed by Castro in 1995?
RANGEL: Could I -- could I finish?
DIAZ-BALART: No, no...
RANGEL: Let's talk about...
DIAZ-BALART: ...but you said that Castro hasn't killed anybody.
RANGEL: Castro...
DIAZ-BALART: How could you say that...
RANGEL: Let me tell you...
DIAZ-BALART: ...when a Vietnam veteran was killed by Castro...
RANGEL: Please, don't be...
DIAZ-BALART: ...in 1996?
RANGEL: Please, don't be. You can be emotional, but don't be rude. The fact is that we do business with Vietnam and they're responsible for at least 60,000 Americans being killed. We do business with North Korea and China -- tens of thousands of Americans that are have been killed. So we do business with Vietnam, with North Korea, with China -- and he's going to tell me that we should be fearful of the communist, Castro?
It's absolutely ridiculous.
It is true that Castro had no business shooting down pilots that were flying over Havana, violating all of American laws...
DIAZ-BALART: ...the international air space.
RANGEL: They were unarmed so and he shouldn't have shot them down. But the truth is they shouldn't have been flying over Cuba in the first place...
DIAZ-BALART: They (INAUDIBLE)...
RANGEL: ...according to our laws.
DIAZ-BALART: When they were shot down, there were shot down...
RANGEL: Well, there's...
DIAZ-BALART: ...and it was...
RANGEL: Whatever.
DIAZ-BALART: ...it was over international air space.
RANGEL: I agree with you.
DIAZ-BALART: Secondly...
RANGEL: But tens of thousands of Americans...
DIAZ-BALART: Yes...
RANGEL: ...have been killed by communists that we do billions of dollars of business with.
DIAZ-BALART: Yes.
RANGEL: And you're going to tell us that we should...
DIAZ-BALART: And the same...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart, let me just...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Let me just point out...
DIAZ-BALART: Yes?
BLITZER: ...that not only does the United States do billions of dollars worth of business with these other communist regimes, but it is now seeking most favored nation trading status for a lot of them, as well.
DIAZ-BALART: Well, first of all, every -- every instance and every geographical and historical situation in the world, obviously, merits a particular policy. I happen to disagree with our policy of enriching the communist regime in China. I think we're going to regret that in 10 or 20 years.
But what we're talking about right now is that we have people in prisons because of their beliefs in Cuba -- 90 miles away from the United States. It's one of a handful of remaining states that are classified as state sponsors of terror. And you have a dictator who is on his death bed and who has had absolute and total power for almost 50 years.
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: And what our policy is saying is liberate all political prisoners, legalize political parties and the press and labor unions...
RANGEL: OK...
DIAZ-BALART: ...and schedule free elections. And the question is, obviously, when that personal -- absolute personal totalitarian dictator disappears from the scene...
RANGEL: OK...
DIAZ-BALART: ...it's going to be -- and is finally approaching...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...it's going to be critical...
BLITZER: Go ahead.
DIAZ-BALART: ...for those political prisoners...
RANGEL: OK...
DIAZ-BALART: ...to have that leverage for a democratic transition.
RANGEL: OK. You're repeating yourself.
The fact of this is that the embargo has not proven to be effective. We and Israel are the only ones that respect the embargo. Every other country is doing business with them. And I'm telling you, the people in Florida -- your constituents who want to visit, who want to send money to their parents to help them out -- you are not telling me that by punishing them that you're helping to get rid of this Castro dictator.
BLITZER: Well, hold on.
RANGEL: I can't believe that. (CROSSTALK)
DIAZ-BALART: First of all, with regard...
BLITZER: Congressman Lincoln Diaz, I want you to respond to that. But also respond to Senator Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate. He wrote recently in "The Miami Herald," he wrote this. He said: "Cuban-American connections to family in Cuba are not only a basic right in humanitarian terms, but also our best tool for helping to foster the beginnings of grassroots democracy on the island. Accordingly, I will grant Cuban-Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send remittances to the island."
A lot of Cuban-Americans in Florida and elsewhere, congressman, would like that.
DIAZ-BALART: It's interesting, Wolf, because we are six Cuban- American members of Congress -- four Republicans, two Democrats; four members of the House, two senators. And we have great disagreements on partisan issues, as you can imagine.
On the issue of Cuba -- and, obviously, we represent the overwhelming majority of Cuban-Americans, the six of us. We represent the overwhelming amount of Cuban-Americans in the country. And we face, obviously, our constituents every two years at the polls. The six of us -- the Cuban-Americans of both parties -- are one on the issue of Cuba.
So if you talk to any of the six of us -- and, obviously, we represent the overwhelming majority of Cuban-Americans and those people who Mr. Rangel now -- and Mr. -- as Mr. Obama now in his -- the -- that piece that he wrote that you mentioned, Wolf -- they seem to be so concerned about. It's the six of us...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...who represent the overwhelming majority of them. And we are -- from both parties -- totally united in saying that until the political prisoners are released.
RANGEL: It's shameful.
DIAZ-BALART: And political parties -- and it's -- no, and what's shameful is to not stand with the Cuban people and their right to free elections.
RANGEL: It is shameful to think that six...
DIAZ-BALART: Now, now, now, now, now...
BLITZER: Hold on.
Hold on.
Let Charlie Rangel...
DIAZ-BALART: Now, now, I think...
BLITZER: Let Charlie Rangel respond.
Go ahead.
RANGEL: It is shameful that you think that six people should dominate our trade and foreign policy with any country. I don't care what your background is, it has to be what's in the best interests of the people of the United States and not what's in the best interests of your constituents...
DIAZ-BALART: And what I...
RANGEL: ...who violently oppose what you're doing.
DIAZ-BALART: Oh, oh, oh, oh...
RANGEL: But it's shameful that you would say that our secretary of state, our president, our trade representative -- to go to four Cuban-Americans in the House to dictate America's policy. That is constitutionally and morally wrong.
DIAZ-BALART: Well, you know, what's interesting is that we hear so many arguments here.
Number one, that our constituents disagree with us. I think there will be...
RANGEL: Yes.
DIAZ-BALART: Very well.
Who are the constituents who can vote for us, the six of us?
So, if that's the case, then it would seem that every two years our constituents, being in such disagreement with us, it would be manifested at the polls.
RANGEL: No...
DIAZ-BALART: Number two...
RANGEL: I think that...
DIAZ-BALART: Number two...
RANGEL: I think that probably...
DIAZ-BALART: Number two, please...
RANGEL: That probably...
DIAZ-BALART: Please, let's not...
RANGEL: That probably...
DIAZ-BALART: Please let's not be -- talking about rudeness. Please, if you could have...
RANGEL: That probably is going to happen.
DIAZ-BALART: If you can give me a chance to speak.
RANGEL: OK.
(INAUDIBLE).
DIAZ-BALART: With regard -- as I started saying -- as I started saying when we started this -- this conversation, when the regime in Cuba had an equivalent amount of what it would receive only from mass U.S. tourism alone -- which was $6 or $7 billion a year, what did that terrorist regime do?
It killed our G.I.s in Grenada. It killed Sergeant Fronius in El Salvador. It sponsored terrorism throughout this hemisphere and much of the world.
So...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...you'd better believe that it's in the interests of the United States to deny billions of dollars from a regime and have a policy that calls for free elections and the liberation of all political prisoners...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...in a country that's 90 miles away.
BLITZER: Well, we're...
DIAZ-BALART: It is in the interests of the United States to not fund a terrorist regime 90 miles away.
BLITZER: Lincoln Diaz-Balart and Charlie Rangel debating here in THE SITUATION ROOM.
Welcome some views on this exchange.
As part of CNN's uncovering America series, we're taking a closer look at some of the issues affecting the Latino community. Many Hispanic Americans have very definite and diverse opinions about U.S. policy toward Cuba. And so does the United States Congress. Some lawmakers insist the time is right to ease sanctions against the communist nation. Others say that would be a huge mistake. And joining us now Democratic Congressman Charlie Rangel of New York and Republican Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart of Florida; gentlemen thanks very much for coming in.
And Charlie Rangel, let me start with you. You're the more senior member of this panel. Why do you believe it's time now to go ahead and lift the restrictions, lift the embargo, try to normalize relations with Cuba?
REP. CHARLES RANGEL (D), NEW YORK: It was the time 45 years ago. The truth of the matter is that we have farmers anxious to sell chickens and pork and rice and beans and open up the markets. And so it's good for our farmers. We have a restriction on the fact that Cuban Americans and others cannot visit Cuba. This has been for over 40 years.
We cannot even -- they can't send money to try to help their relatives in Cuba. And, lastly, they can only visit once every three years. So, if they have a relative that's dying, they've got to time the death. This policy is really cut out for a handful of people in Miami and it's the tail wagging the dog. We've never had a worst foreign policy, trade policy or even an international policy than what we have with Cuba.
BLITZER: All right, Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart, why do you disagree?
REP. LINCOLN DIAZ-BALART (R), FLORIDA: Well Mr. Rangel first misstated some of the details of our policy. But let's focus on the principle aspects here. First of all, we are keeping billions of dollars from that communist terrorist dictatorship. And I'm sure that the family of Sergeant Greg Fronius, who was killed in El Salvador in 1987 by a Cuban planned mission, a Green Beret who was training the Salvador armed forces at the time or our forces who were killed fighting the Cubans in 1983, when our forces invaded and liberated Grenada, the relatives of those killed I'm sure would agree that it's a good idea to keep billions and billions of dollars from that communist terrorist dictatorship. And I'm sure that the family of Sergeant Greg Fronius, who was killed in El Salvador in 1987 by a Cuban planned mission -- a Green Beret who was training the Salvadoran armed forces at the time; or our forces who were killed fighting the Cubans in 1983 when our forces invaded and liberated Grenada. The relatives of those killed, I'm sure, would agree that it's a good idea to keep billions and billions of dollars from that regime.
When that regime had $6 or $7 billion a year from the Soviet Union, precisely -- Angola, Nicaragua and El Salvador, and so many other places, were hit with direct terrorism from that regime.
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: So we're keeping billions of dollars from that regime.
And then, now that the dictator is finally on his death bed, it's important that we retain... BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...leverage so that the political prisoners -- that's what we're -- that's what our policy says.
BLITZER: Well (INAUDIBLE)...
DIAZ-BALART: ...the embargo goes away tomorrow if all political prisoners -- and when all political prisoners are freed; political parties, labor unions and the press are legalized; and free elections are scheduled.
Which of the three conditions do the Cuban people not deserve?
BLITZER: All right, Congressman Rangel?
RANGEL: Let me tell you one thing. First of all, he never said that Cuba or Castro has killed anybody. Indeed, the record is clear that we tried to kill him. But when he starts talking about...
DIAZ-BALART: How about the brothers to the rescue who were murdered over international space?
Didn't Castro kill them?
RANGEL: Let me talk about communists. You know, you try...
DIAZ-BALART: What were -- how about that Vietnam veteran killed by Castro in 1995?
RANGEL: Could I -- could I finish?
DIAZ-BALART: No, no...
RANGEL: Let's talk about...
DIAZ-BALART: ...but you said that Castro hasn't killed anybody.
RANGEL: Castro...
DIAZ-BALART: How could you say that...
RANGEL: Let me tell you...
DIAZ-BALART: ...when a Vietnam veteran was killed by Castro...
RANGEL: Please, don't be...
DIAZ-BALART: ...in 1996?
RANGEL: Please, don't be. You can be emotional, but don't be rude. The fact is that we do business with Vietnam and they're responsible for at least 60,000 Americans being killed. We do business with North Korea and China -- tens of thousands of Americans that are have been killed. So we do business with Vietnam, with North Korea, with China -- and he's going to tell me that we should be fearful of the communist, Castro?
It's absolutely ridiculous.
It is true that Castro had no business shooting down pilots that were flying over Havana, violating all of American laws...
DIAZ-BALART: ...the international air space.
RANGEL: They were unarmed so and he shouldn't have shot them down. But the truth is they shouldn't have been flying over Cuba in the first place...
DIAZ-BALART: They (INAUDIBLE)...
RANGEL: ...according to our laws.
DIAZ-BALART: When they were shot down, there were shot down...
RANGEL: Well, there's...
DIAZ-BALART: ...and it was...
RANGEL: Whatever.
DIAZ-BALART: ...it was over international air space.
RANGEL: I agree with you.
DIAZ-BALART: Secondly...
RANGEL: But tens of thousands of Americans...
DIAZ-BALART: Yes...
RANGEL: ...have been killed by communists that we do billions of dollars of business with.
DIAZ-BALART: Yes.
RANGEL: And you're going to tell us that we should...
DIAZ-BALART: And the same...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Congressman Lincoln Diaz-Balart, let me just...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Let me just point out...
DIAZ-BALART: Yes?
BLITZER: ...that not only does the United States do billions of dollars worth of business with these other communist regimes, but it is now seeking most favored nation trading status for a lot of them, as well.
DIAZ-BALART: Well, first of all, every -- every instance and every geographical and historical situation in the world, obviously, merits a particular policy. I happen to disagree with our policy of enriching the communist regime in China. I think we're going to regret that in 10 or 20 years.
But what we're talking about right now is that we have people in prisons because of their beliefs in Cuba -- 90 miles away from the United States. It's one of a handful of remaining states that are classified as state sponsors of terror. And you have a dictator who is on his death bed and who has had absolute and total power for almost 50 years.
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: And what our policy is saying is liberate all political prisoners, legalize political parties and the press and labor unions...
RANGEL: OK...
DIAZ-BALART: ...and schedule free elections. And the question is, obviously, when that personal -- absolute personal totalitarian dictator disappears from the scene...
RANGEL: OK...
DIAZ-BALART: ...it's going to be -- and is finally approaching...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...it's going to be critical...
BLITZER: Go ahead.
DIAZ-BALART: ...for those political prisoners...
RANGEL: OK...
DIAZ-BALART: ...to have that leverage for a democratic transition.
RANGEL: OK. You're repeating yourself.
The fact of this is that the embargo has not proven to be effective. We and Israel are the only ones that respect the embargo. Every other country is doing business with them. And I'm telling you, the people in Florida -- your constituents who want to visit, who want to send money to their parents to help them out -- you are not telling me that by punishing them that you're helping to get rid of this Castro dictator.
BLITZER: Well, hold on.
RANGEL: I can't believe that. (CROSSTALK)
DIAZ-BALART: First of all, with regard...
BLITZER: Congressman Lincoln Diaz, I want you to respond to that. But also respond to Senator Barack Obama, the Democratic presidential candidate. He wrote recently in "The Miami Herald," he wrote this. He said: "Cuban-American connections to family in Cuba are not only a basic right in humanitarian terms, but also our best tool for helping to foster the beginnings of grassroots democracy on the island. Accordingly, I will grant Cuban-Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send remittances to the island."
A lot of Cuban-Americans in Florida and elsewhere, congressman, would like that.
DIAZ-BALART: It's interesting, Wolf, because we are six Cuban- American members of Congress -- four Republicans, two Democrats; four members of the House, two senators. And we have great disagreements on partisan issues, as you can imagine.
On the issue of Cuba -- and, obviously, we represent the overwhelming majority of Cuban-Americans, the six of us. We represent the overwhelming amount of Cuban-Americans in the country. And we face, obviously, our constituents every two years at the polls. The six of us -- the Cuban-Americans of both parties -- are one on the issue of Cuba.
So if you talk to any of the six of us -- and, obviously, we represent the overwhelming majority of Cuban-Americans and those people who Mr. Rangel now -- and Mr. -- as Mr. Obama now in his -- the -- that piece that he wrote that you mentioned, Wolf -- they seem to be so concerned about. It's the six of us...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...who represent the overwhelming majority of them. And we are -- from both parties -- totally united in saying that until the political prisoners are released.
RANGEL: It's shameful.
DIAZ-BALART: And political parties -- and it's -- no, and what's shameful is to not stand with the Cuban people and their right to free elections.
RANGEL: It is shameful to think that six...
DIAZ-BALART: Now, now, now, now, now...
BLITZER: Hold on.
Hold on.
Let Charlie Rangel...
DIAZ-BALART: Now, now, I think...
BLITZER: Let Charlie Rangel respond.
Go ahead.
RANGEL: It is shameful that you think that six people should dominate our trade and foreign policy with any country. I don't care what your background is, it has to be what's in the best interests of the people of the United States and not what's in the best interests of your constituents...
DIAZ-BALART: And what I...
RANGEL: ...who violently oppose what you're doing.
DIAZ-BALART: Oh, oh, oh, oh...
RANGEL: But it's shameful that you would say that our secretary of state, our president, our trade representative -- to go to four Cuban-Americans in the House to dictate America's policy. That is constitutionally and morally wrong.
DIAZ-BALART: Well, you know, what's interesting is that we hear so many arguments here.
Number one, that our constituents disagree with us. I think there will be...
RANGEL: Yes.
DIAZ-BALART: Very well.
Who are the constituents who can vote for us, the six of us?
So, if that's the case, then it would seem that every two years our constituents, being in such disagreement with us, it would be manifested at the polls.
RANGEL: No...
DIAZ-BALART: Number two...
RANGEL: I think that...
DIAZ-BALART: Number two...
RANGEL: I think that probably...
DIAZ-BALART: Number two, please...
RANGEL: That probably...
DIAZ-BALART: Please, let's not...
RANGEL: That probably...
DIAZ-BALART: Please let's not be -- talking about rudeness. Please, if you could have...
RANGEL: That probably is going to happen.
DIAZ-BALART: If you can give me a chance to speak.
RANGEL: OK.
(INAUDIBLE).
DIAZ-BALART: With regard -- as I started saying -- as I started saying when we started this -- this conversation, when the regime in Cuba had an equivalent amount of what it would receive only from mass U.S. tourism alone -- which was $6 or $7 billion a year, what did that terrorist regime do?
It killed our G.I.s in Grenada. It killed Sergeant Fronius in El Salvador. It sponsored terrorism throughout this hemisphere and much of the world.
So...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...you'd better believe that it's in the interests of the United States to deny billions of dollars from a regime and have a policy that calls for free elections and the liberation of all political prisoners...
BLITZER: All right...
DIAZ-BALART: ...in a country that's 90 miles away.
BLITZER: Well, we're...
DIAZ-BALART: It is in the interests of the United States to not fund a terrorist regime 90 miles away.
BLITZER: Lincoln Diaz-Balart and Charlie Rangel debating here in THE SITUATION ROOM.